Barnbrook Again was top class winning a champion chase. ED was a glorified handicapper. Forgive & Forget was top class & was even placed to Dawn Run in a Gold Cup. KS beat handicappers when winning by 36l. He clocked 6m 7s in good to soft that day. Long Run is the first decent horse except Denman he has ever faced. He was smashed out of sight in 6m 3s on SOFT ground...an AMAZING time! Nicholls has said he would not have beaten him even if he was on top of his game!
I know what you mean, but I just think that One Man didn't really respond under pressure no matter the distance. He needed to have his races won quite early; waiting with him didn't work if the hammer was put down early (Sun Alliance Chase etc). His Sandown performance was his best, I always thought - absolutely no doubt he stayed the distance. But you're right in that he needed the race to be run to suit him, which is why he can't be put up there with the best.
Dessie beat Barnbrook by a going away 8l. Barnbrook had grade one winner Yahoo another 8l behind him in 3rd so clearly stayed 3M well. Great dual KG winner & GC win/place The Fellow would have smashed ED yet a Desert Orchid already in decline beat him hollow by a massive 17l. The whole line ups Dessie faced just oozed class thats all. Kauto Star faces just three reasonable rivals this year: Long Run, Riverside Theatre & Burton Port. All still babies really. Dessie faced hardened pros.
Also, just to clarify with Barnbrook Again. On overall ability I'd put Barnbrook Again ahead of Exotic Dancer. I know what a fabulous 2m - 2m 4f chaser he was. I was just saying that over 3m in my opinion I feel Exotic Dancer would be superior as that distance really stretched BA's stamina. Obviously, I know you'll disagree so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Getting into a heated debate that can't be proved one way or another is pretty pointless. :)
Please don't refer to me as having a short memory, most of my favourite horses are from the early 90's when I was growing up. I just feel people can go too far the other way and hold up horses they watched years ago on pedastal. If you look at Toby Tobias & Exotic Dancer's career's they are very similar. Both finished second in a King George & a Gold Cup. Plus they both won the Martell Cup at Aintree & the race now known as the Argento Chase at Cheltenham.
Top class Toby Tobias & the great Barnbrook Again, a dual champion chaser would have destroyed glorified handicapper Exotic Dancer who was about the same level as Rough Quest. I guess you think E.D was better than Forgive & Forget, The Fellow & Wayward Lad too or maybe you have forgotten Mr. Mulligan was a Gold Cup winner & Barton Bank a King George winner?
Alas people have short memories. Kauto Star just would not have lived with the fencing of Dessie or One Man!!
Exotic Dancer finished placed behind Kauto Star in two of his King George victories and he was a top class chaser. In my opinion, ED was a superior horse over 3m to the likes of Rough Quest, Toby Tobias, Barnbrook Again & Kildimo who finished placed behind Desert Orchid & One Man. So if you say KS beat nothing in his King George victories then you might as well say that Dessie & One Man beat nothing as well in my view.
Worth remembering One Man won this 6 seconds faster than Kauto Star's 2009 distance win. In doing so he beat a future Gold Cup winner & a previous winner of this race as well as a Grand National winner.
No one is crabbing Kauto, it's just that he has beaten NOTHING in his King George races. Yes he would have been competitive against Dessie & One Man, but whether his jumping would have held together against more equal opposition around here I'd seriously doubt it.
It's only now when watching this again, it looks like One Man doesn't appear to stay; on the run-in, Richard Dunwoody almost seems to be shoving up his neck to get him home. However, Brian Harding, who won a Hennessy and the Champion Chase on him, got a real song out of him. I firmly believe the horse needed to be waited with, because he always seemed to be running a bit lazy when in front in his later years. I also think he preferred flat tracks.
Correct. Dessies Tingle Creek was carrying 12st conceding masses of weight to his rivals yet won by 12 lengths hard held. His performance in the Racing Post trophy was one of the best seen for many a year, however, I was most taken by KS performance in the King George although the opposition were not the best.
im sure kauto would be capable of givin away plenty of weight to any of the 3 mile handicappers around..i mean if denman can do it then kauto certainly can!!
Kauto Star is a great horse no doubt about it but I wont class him as a true giant until ive seen him (not going to happen) land a top class handicap giving lumps of weight to other smart performers. It annoys me when i see comments of how he is is equally top class at 2 or 3 miles as his Tingle Creek wins prove. He won them as level weight contests Desert Orchid would have matched / bettered his score but he was running in it as a handicap.
I'm getting the impression btw that your original comment here is sort of saying that Kauto Star hadn't proved himself yet - have your views on this matter changed since this year's King George?
Oddly, though, I've never seen any b&w King Georges, even though it was one of the very first races to be televised - the BBC were showing it by 1948 - and it attracted the greats of the day pretty much from the beginning. I suspect the BBC probably didn't keep copies. I'm not sure I'd *want* to see 1965, though, when Dunkirk was killed, and the 1966 version when Arkle was injured wasn't even shown, I think because of a dispute with the Kempton authorities (how times change, eh).
re. the ground for this race (officially good to firm but called "firm to frozen" by some) I wonder whether anyone will ever dig up the 1964 King George? That was quite a bizarre race - Arkle wasn't involved, but Mill House scared everyone off before being withdrawn, and only two ran (Frenchman's Cove beat I forget who). What intrigues me though is that the ground was officially *hard*, which must mean they were pretty much racing on ice.
Not as good as his win at Sandown and no not much footage of him online most of my previous stuff of him got deleted. I have all his chase carear big wins on vid.
Wonderful memories as well as thoughts of the sad losses later. Strong Promise was only a novice at that time, brilliant to see him too.
There is very little footage online of One Man in action so huge thanks for posting.
foriamonlyahorse11 Says:
30/03/2011 6:41:28 AM
Barnbrook Again was top class winning a champion chase. ED was a glorified handicapper. Forgive & Forget was top class & was even placed to Dawn Run in a Gold Cup. KS beat handicappers when winning by 36l. He clocked 6m 7s in good to soft that day. Long Run is the first decent horse except Denman he has ever faced. He was smashed out of sight in 6m 3s on SOFT ground...an AMAZING time! Nicholls has said he would not have beaten him even if he was on top of his game!
ComteLafon Says:
3/03/2011 9:06:36 AM
I know what you mean, but I just think that One Man didn't really respond under pressure no matter the distance. He needed to have his races won quite early; waiting with him didn't work if the hammer was put down early (Sun Alliance Chase etc). His Sandown performance was his best, I always thought - absolutely no doubt he stayed the distance. But you're right in that he needed the race to be run to suit him, which is why he can't be put up there with the best.
foriamonlyahorse1 Says:
23/12/2010 3:15:33 AM
Dessie beat Barnbrook by a going away 8l. Barnbrook had grade one winner Yahoo another 8l behind him in 3rd so clearly stayed 3M well. Great dual KG winner & GC win/place The Fellow would have smashed ED yet a Desert Orchid already in decline beat him hollow by a massive 17l. The whole line ups Dessie faced just oozed class thats all. Kauto Star faces just three reasonable rivals this year: Long Run, Riverside Theatre & Burton Port. All still babies really. Dessie faced hardened pros.
Arazi124 Says:
22/12/2010 8:31:38 PM
Also, just to clarify with Barnbrook Again. On overall ability I'd put Barnbrook Again ahead of Exotic Dancer. I know what a fabulous 2m - 2m 4f chaser he was. I was just saying that over 3m in my opinion I feel Exotic Dancer would be superior as that distance really stretched BA's stamina. Obviously, I know you'll disagree so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Getting into a heated debate that can't be proved one way or another is pretty pointless. :)
Arazi124 Says:
22/12/2010 8:22:23 PM
Please don't refer to me as having a short memory, most of my favourite horses are from the early 90's when I was growing up. I just feel people can go too far the other way and hold up horses they watched years ago on pedastal. If you look at Toby Tobias & Exotic Dancer's career's they are very similar. Both finished second in a King George & a Gold Cup. Plus they both won the Martell Cup at Aintree & the race now known as the Argento Chase at Cheltenham.
foriamonlyahorse1 Says:
22/12/2010 1:59:16 AM
Top class Toby Tobias & the great Barnbrook Again, a dual champion chaser would have destroyed glorified handicapper Exotic Dancer who was about the same level as Rough Quest. I guess you think E.D was better than Forgive & Forget, The Fellow & Wayward Lad too or maybe you have forgotten Mr. Mulligan was a Gold Cup winner & Barton Bank a King George winner?
Alas people have short memories. Kauto Star just would not have lived with the fencing of Dessie or One Man!!
Arazi124 Says:
20/12/2010 12:36:50 AM
Exotic Dancer finished placed behind Kauto Star in two of his King George victories and he was a top class chaser. In my opinion, ED was a superior horse over 3m to the likes of Rough Quest, Toby Tobias, Barnbrook Again & Kildimo who finished placed behind Desert Orchid & One Man. So if you say KS beat nothing in his King George victories then you might as well say that Dessie & One Man beat nothing as well in my view.
foriamonlyahorse11 Says:
23/11/2010 5:33:54 AM
Worth remembering One Man won this 6 seconds faster than Kauto Star's 2009 distance win. In doing so he beat a future Gold Cup winner & a previous winner of this race as well as a Grand National winner.
No one is crabbing Kauto, it's just that he has beaten NOTHING in his King George races. Yes he would have been competitive against Dessie & One Man, but whether his jumping would have held together against more equal opposition around here I'd seriously doubt it.
malcs0 Says:
6/08/2010 2:19:00 AM
It's only now when watching this again, it looks like One Man doesn't appear to stay; on the run-in, Richard Dunwoody almost seems to be shoving up his neck to get him home. However, Brian Harding, who won a Hennessy and the Champion Chase on him, got a real song out of him. I firmly believe the horse needed to be waited with, because he always seemed to be running a bit lazy when in front in his later years. I also think he preferred flat tracks.
foriamonlyahorse2 Says:
16/03/2010 6:33:21 AM
Correct. Dessies Tingle Creek was carrying 12st conceding masses of weight to his rivals yet won by 12 lengths hard held. His performance in the Racing Post trophy was one of the best seen for many a year, however, I was most taken by KS performance in the King George although the opposition were not the best.
deano2009007 Says:
25/01/2010 1:23:13 PM
im sure kauto would be capable of givin away plenty of weight to any of the 3 mile handicappers around..i mean if denman can do it then kauto certainly can!!
bluemanc43 Says:
24/01/2010 8:30:35 AM
Kauto Star is a great horse no doubt about it but I wont class him as a true giant until ive seen him (not going to happen) land a top class handicap giving lumps of weight to other smart performers. It annoys me when i see comments of how he is is equally top class at 2 or 3 miles as his Tingle Creek wins prove. He won them as level weight contests Desert Orchid would have matched / bettered his score but he was running in it as a handicap.
RobinCarmody Says:
23/01/2010 5:47:41 PM
I'm getting the impression btw that your original comment here is sort of saying that Kauto Star hadn't proved himself yet - have your views on this matter changed since this year's King George?
RobinCarmody Says:
23/01/2010 5:40:15 PM
Oddly, though, I've never seen any b&w King Georges, even though it was one of the very first races to be televised - the BBC were showing it by 1948 - and it attracted the greats of the day pretty much from the beginning. I suspect the BBC probably didn't keep copies. I'm not sure I'd *want* to see 1965, though, when Dunkirk was killed, and the 1966 version when Arkle was injured wasn't even shown, I think because of a dispute with the Kempton authorities (how times change, eh).
RobinCarmody Says:
23/01/2010 5:37:33 PM
re. the ground for this race (officially good to firm but called "firm to frozen" by some) I wonder whether anyone will ever dig up the 1964 King George? That was quite a bizarre race - Arkle wasn't involved, but Mill House scared everyone off before being withdrawn, and only two ran (Frenchman's Cove beat I forget who). What intrigues me though is that the ground was officially *hard*, which must mean they were pretty much racing on ice.
bluemanc43 Says:
10/01/2010 8:28:52 AM
Not as good as his win at Sandown and no not much footage of him online most of my previous stuff of him got deleted. I have all his chase carear big wins on vid.
feathers666 Says:
5/01/2010 1:13:08 PM
Wonderful memories as well as thoughts of the sad losses later. Strong Promise was only a novice at that time, brilliant to see him too. There is very little footage online of One Man in action so huge thanks for posting.
bluemanc43 Says:
22/11/2009 8:13:19 AM
your welcome thats why i post them glad you enjoyed it.