I think you are deluded if you think Dessie beats Master mindeds 08 2 mile performance. Next you will be telling me he beats frankel over a mile giving him 2 stone and Black Caviar over 6 furlongs giving a stone. Funny that flat horses dont get the same handicap issues in terms of greatness. I would suggest its the only thing Dessie fans are hanging onto to try and blast out Kauto.
Yes. His performance in beating 2 mile specialists in the Victor Chandler is enough to suggest that it was a better performance - he gave 22 pounds away that day. Beating your peers on level weights is one thing, but to beat them when carrying significantly more weight is quite another.
Firmly put in his place is a little harsh. That gap was closing and it was Kautos first run of then year. Remember Monets Garden was also a 2.5 mile specialist. I said 4 king georges above but i can also add another to that :)
On level weights around a right handed track Dessie would DESTROY Kauto Star, simply because Dessie would intimidate the hell out of KS, he broke the hearts of both Panto Prince and Yahoo in races that suited them rather than Des. Also, KS was lightly raced - he raced in HALF the number of races that Dessie ran, and therefore not the hardened warrior that Dessie was; it's all very well to cherry pick your races but it does give the impression that KS ducked out of true tests of his ability.
Oh I'd forgotten that last fence! What a star. It's pointless to compare great horses in that way. Kauto, Desert Orchid and indeed Denman total different types of horses and all great!
I always hate it when people try and compare racehorses...Kauto and Dessie and others are all legends, but you can't really say which is best unless they run in the same races at the same time with the same opposition and the same conditions. Which will never happen. So saying that one is better than the other, or that one could never do what the other did, is pointless.
Monets Graden was a Aintree specialist and it was over a shorter than ideal trip for Kauto, who was closing in at then end. I doubt Dessie would give weight a a 2mile specialist like Masterminded and a beating over 2 miles. Common sense troops.
- you wrote off Kauto before he did win it at 11yrs of age. You still think Dessie gives him a stone and a beating? 5 King Georges and a 3rd now, when arguable not at his best. How many records does Kauto hold on his own? Probably more than Dessie. How many Gold cups? More than Dessie, how many King georges? More than Dessie. They are the MAIN two races on the NH calendar.
sorry but i dnt agree kauto has only eva once tryed to win a decent handicap and that was against monets garden at aintree and was firmly put in hes place , desert orchid did it time and time again , WHIBREAD GOLD CUP , RACING POST CHASE , IRISH NATIONAL , VICTOR CHANDLER , AND WON WON THEM THEM ALL , IN MY OPPINION DESERT ORCHID WAS BETTER KAUTO DOES EXACTLY WHAT BEST MATE DID RUNS THREE TIMES A YEAR IN RACE CONDITIONS TO SUIT NOT NOT HANDICAPS TO SUIT
I was a bit put off at the time by the Dessie hype - it was good for publicity - but as time goes on, his achievements are really standing up in the pantheon and, personally, I'm baffled how Timeform have put Kauto so high on the basis of one level-weights race when their ratings of DO, Arkle, Carvills Hill and most others are based on handicaps. I'm a fan of all great horses, but I'd find it hard to say that Kauto is better than Desert Orchid on form. Greatness is more subjective, of course.
I remember this race. He was knackered by the last, but made Ireland's best staying chasers look ordinary. John Francome was totally spot on. He did an Arkle that day. He got in front and just burned everything off. You notice how many horses start hitting fences and falling on the second circuit. Dessie was just taking the michael at the last. What a horse he was. For versatility, he's probably been the best horse since the early seventies when Pendil used to be campaigned similarly.
How can u say that. Dessie COULD give weight away.... lumps of it, to good horses. Kauto CANT give weight away to average performers. As bluemanc says, he should have won a 5th King George but for a silly silly ride. To this day I dont know what he was doing. He won the King George at 11, Kauto didnt. Dessie would give Kauto a stone and a beating if you ask me
How can u say that. Dessie won every COULD give weight away.... lumps of it, 2 to good horses. Kauto CANT give weight away to average performers. As bluemanc says, he should have won a 5th King George but for a silly silly ride. To this day I dont know what he was doing. He won the King George at 11, Kauto didnt. Dessie would give Kauto a stone and a beating if you ask me
It has nothing to do with him being grey or whatever that I have the highest opinion of the horse. He won this race with top weight with Dunwoody not needing his whip. In his mega 88-89 season, he gave 22lb to Panto Prince over HIS favoured distance when HE was at his most confident in the Victor Chandler, and beat him. He gave a stone and a half to Pegwell Bay in the Agfa Diamond Chase when HE was at HIS most confident and beat him. These are indisputible facts. Untouchable performances since.
I just cant see anything beating a peak Kauto Star around Kempton over 3 miles. In my opinion Dessie will always have the backing of fans due to him being Grey and because he won a gold cup in what you could say was against all odds, due to ther ground etc. Kautos two gold cup wins have been a sprint finish. However, his King George wins and in particular 2009, were some of the best ever. He destroyed a field who were top notch and did it in style. I like both horses but think Kauto is classy
not knocking Kauto he is the best of his generation but Dessie was hampered in that he could only truly perform away from Cheltenham. He would have won 5 King Georges in a row but for a crazy ride in the 1987 running when along with Beau Ranger he set a total suicidal pace that no horse could ever sustain. He would have also won a stack of Tingle Creeks / Victor Chandlers were they not run as a handicaps.
Joyce Says:
3/04/2013 2:54:58 PM
Does anyone know where I would get photos of this race with Cloneygrange in the shot alongside Desert Orchid?
Jamie2462A Says:
22/07/2012 11:44:11 PM
I think you are deluded if you think Dessie beats Master mindeds 08 2 mile performance. Next you will be telling me he beats frankel over a mile giving him 2 stone and Black Caviar over 6 furlongs giving a stone. Funny that flat horses dont get the same handicap issues in terms of greatness. I would suggest its the only thing Dessie fans are hanging onto to try and blast out Kauto.
aberlioness Says:
10/07/2012 12:01:55 AM
Yes. His performance in beating 2 mile specialists in the Victor Chandler is enough to suggest that it was a better performance - he gave 22 pounds away that day. Beating your peers on level weights is one thing, but to beat them when carrying significantly more weight is quite another.
Jamie2462A Says:
9/07/2012 8:26:23 PM
Are you saying Dessie beats Mastermindeds 2mile 08 CC performance?
Jamie2462A Says:
9/07/2012 8:25:20 PM
Firmly put in his place is a little harsh. That gap was closing and it was Kautos first run of then year. Remember Monets Garden was also a 2.5 mile specialist. I said 4 king georges above but i can also add another to that :)
aberlioness Says:
3/07/2012 12:07:29 PM
Er... Dessie did - Panto Prince and Vodkatini come to mind...
aberlioness Says:
21/06/2012 3:33:30 AM
On level weights around a right handed track Dessie would DESTROY Kauto Star, simply because Dessie would intimidate the hell out of KS, he broke the hearts of both Panto Prince and Yahoo in races that suited them rather than Des. Also, KS was lightly raced - he raced in HALF the number of races that Dessie ran, and therefore not the hardened warrior that Dessie was; it's all very well to cherry pick your races but it does give the impression that KS ducked out of true tests of his ability.
Caedmon25 Says:
19/05/2012 4:44:49 PM
Oh I'd forgotten that last fence! What a star. It's pointless to compare great horses in that way. Kauto, Desert Orchid and indeed Denman total different types of horses and all great!
FallenAngelDream Says:
19/03/2012 3:44:27 AM
I always hate it when people try and compare racehorses...Kauto and Dessie and others are all legends, but you can't really say which is best unless they run in the same races at the same time with the same opposition and the same conditions. Which will never happen. So saying that one is better than the other, or that one could never do what the other did, is pointless.
Jamie2462A Says:
21/02/2012 4:24:03 AM
Monets Graden was a Aintree specialist and it was over a shorter than ideal trip for Kauto, who was closing in at then end. I doubt Dessie would give weight a a 2mile specialist like Masterminded and a beating over 2 miles. Common sense troops.
Jamie2462A Says:
21/02/2012 4:20:47 AM
- you wrote off Kauto before he did win it at 11yrs of age. You still think Dessie gives him a stone and a beating? 5 King Georges and a 3rd now, when arguable not at his best. How many records does Kauto hold on his own? Probably more than Dessie. How many Gold cups? More than Dessie, how many King georges? More than Dessie. They are the MAIN two races on the NH calendar.
stevven69 Says:
7/02/2012 2:33:23 AM
sorry but i dnt agree kauto has only eva once tryed to win a decent handicap and that was against monets garden at aintree and was firmly put in hes place , desert orchid did it time and time again , WHIBREAD GOLD CUP , RACING POST CHASE , IRISH NATIONAL , VICTOR CHANDLER , AND WON WON THEM THEM ALL , IN MY OPPINION DESERT ORCHID WAS BETTER KAUTO DOES EXACTLY WHAT BEST MATE DID RUNS THREE TIMES A YEAR IN RACE CONDITIONS TO SUIT NOT NOT HANDICAPS TO SUIT
ComteLafon Says:
13/11/2011 10:06:33 AM
I was a bit put off at the time by the Dessie hype - it was good for publicity - but as time goes on, his achievements are really standing up in the pantheon and, personally, I'm baffled how Timeform have put Kauto so high on the basis of one level-weights race when their ratings of DO, Arkle, Carvills Hill and most others are based on handicaps. I'm a fan of all great horses, but I'd find it hard to say that Kauto is better than Desert Orchid on form. Greatness is more subjective, of course.
Laytonia1977 Says:
17/04/2011 7:46:00 AM
A true champion - that jump at the second last - thank you for uploading. Dessie, never, ever forgotten x
malcs0 Says:
2/02/2011 2:30:50 AM
I remember this race. He was knackered by the last, but made Ireland's best staying chasers look ordinary. John Francome was totally spot on. He did an Arkle that day. He got in front and just burned everything off. You notice how many horses start hitting fences and falling on the second circuit. Dessie was just taking the michael at the last. What a horse he was. For versatility, he's probably been the best horse since the early seventies when Pendil used to be campaigned similarly.
ALmyster947 Says:
18/01/2011 7:19:27 AM
How can u say that. Dessie COULD give weight away.... lumps of it, to good horses. Kauto CANT give weight away to average performers. As bluemanc says, he should have won a 5th King George but for a silly silly ride. To this day I dont know what he was doing. He won the King George at 11, Kauto didnt. Dessie would give Kauto a stone and a beating if you ask me
ALmyster947 Says:
18/01/2011 7:18:39 AM
How can u say that. Dessie won every COULD give weight away.... lumps of it, 2 to good horses. Kauto CANT give weight away to average performers. As bluemanc says, he should have won a 5th King George but for a silly silly ride. To this day I dont know what he was doing. He won the King George at 11, Kauto didnt. Dessie would give Kauto a stone and a beating if you ask me
sleeplessinsale Says:
21/11/2010 9:34:25 PM
It has nothing to do with him being grey or whatever that I have the highest opinion of the horse. He won this race with top weight with Dunwoody not needing his whip. In his mega 88-89 season, he gave 22lb to Panto Prince over HIS favoured distance when HE was at his most confident in the Victor Chandler, and beat him. He gave a stone and a half to Pegwell Bay in the Agfa Diamond Chase when HE was at HIS most confident and beat him. These are indisputible facts. Untouchable performances since.
Jamie2462A Says:
27/09/2010 5:03:24 AM
I just cant see anything beating a peak Kauto Star around Kempton over 3 miles. In my opinion Dessie will always have the backing of fans due to him being Grey and because he won a gold cup in what you could say was against all odds, due to ther ground etc.
Kautos two gold cup wins have been a sprint finish. However, his King George wins and in particular 2009, were some of the best ever. He destroyed a field who were top notch and did it in style. I like both horses but think Kauto is classy
bluemanc43 Says:
18/09/2010 4:44:40 AM
not knocking Kauto he is the best of his generation but Dessie was hampered in that he could only truly perform away from Cheltenham. He would have won 5 King Georges in a row but for a crazy ride in the 1987 running when along with Beau Ranger he set a total suicidal pace that no horse could ever sustain. He would have also won a stack of Tingle Creeks / Victor Chandlers were they not run as a handicaps.