But thats the modern problem yes they can because of training advancements they can be got fully fit at home so no pressure is placed on them on the track as would have been in the past. See You Then set the standard in the mid 80's traina fragile champion for the day thats what he was known as See You When? but it worked. Best Mate wasnt fragile but couldnt cope with races close together and certainly not ones that would put him under pressure apart from the Gold Cup.
Difference between Dessie and Kauto for me is Dessie raced in Grade 1 Company and top class handicaps over hurdles and fences for 8 seasons he also had 30 more races than Kauto yet all we hear is Kautos longivity, Oh please level weight contests dont bottom top class chasers as 9 times out of 10 they race inferior fields and like i told somebody else Beef or Salmon won 10 Grade 1s all in Ireland is he a legend???
Best Mate is a joke he beat nothing of note in virtually any race yet is a great because he won 3 Gold Cups not to me he aint. I gave far more respect to Kauto in losing to Monets Garden than I ever had previously because he lost to a top class horse narrowly proving how highly he was rated may be correct but its the only 1 that you can rate where as Dessie did it season after season.
But Dessie was beaten twice at Sandown. PN saw what Best Mate achieved and took the view that because of Kauto's lighter athletic build he would not wear him out in handicaps. He was unafraid to run Denman in handicaps because he had the robust build of an old fashioned chaser. Incidentally Denman won his 2 hennessys off 161 and 174 ..Kauto got beat a length by Monets Garden, ( finishing 20 lengths clear of Exotic Dancer ) off a mark of 179 so his handicap performance was perfectly respectable
Kauto is virtually equally as good either way round Denman was even worse affected than Dessie in his aversion but Denman was certainly the better horse round Cheltenham than either Kauto or Dessie. Denman I agree wasnt versitile like Kauto or Dessie and dont forget if the Tingle Creek was still a handicap as it was in Dessies day Kauto wouldnt have even lined up never mind won it.
Each will have their fans ..and they are both true greats..but i have seen both Dessie and Kauto in the flesh and my own view is that KS is the more versatile, particularly because of his ability to win on both right handed and left handed tracks. It does not denigrate him merely because he didn't attempt a Whitbread or Hennessy. Denman was his equal and superior at Cheltenham but as a galloper rather than a speed horse he could not act at Aintree or kempton nor win a Tingle Creek
Both are great horses Kauto was lucky enough to have a nemesis his equal and for me better in Denman and cant even claim to be the top rated performer of his time Master Minded has been rated higher and currently Big Bucks has a higher rating. Just because a horse wins level weight races framed for them and no other dont make them the best ever after all Golden Miller won 5 Gold Cups and a Grand National each are legends of their time and we enjoy them while we can.
So Kauto couldn't win a KG at 11 ? Yeah right ! Dessie was a great but Kauto's achievements surpass him... 2 Gold Cup wins plus 2 Gold Cup places and 5 King George wins versus 1 GC win, 2 places and 4 King Georges.
Ok get your gold cup point but.... who of any decency has Kauto beat in a Gold Cup. Exsotic Dancer wasnt top level and Denman had a dodgy ticker.
My point is, Dessie beat good horses off levels.... and he thrashed the same good horses giving then nearly 2 stone. Kauto couldnt give away 1.
Kauto is good.... But he couldnt win a KG at 11 (should have been 10 but for the posponment) Dessie thrashed a gold cup winner by 17lngth at 11 and gave away 1st 1lb and WON at 12. Could Kauto Star?
How many well backed horses get a reception like that after they've just got beat? Not many i'm sure. Dessie was simply a joy to watch and anyone who really loves horse racing & who was around to watch him race should thank their lucky stars that they got to see a real champ.
Watching this race after so long has made my eyes fill with tears of joy at the reception the crowd gave Dessie when he came home safe n sound. The commentator was more interested in Dessie than the eventual winner and that says a lot about the old boy! Dessie you are sadly sadly missed. R.I.P.
Kauto has proved himself to be as good as Dessie if not better. Just because he does not give a way weight does not make him a worse of a horse. The idea is to complete at the pinnicle of your sport. For these 2 its the Gold Cup and King George. Surely that puts Kauto right up there with the best, along side Dessie, Arkle and Golden Miller. Beating the horses he did was nothing less than totally amazing. Its not who he beat...its how he beats them!!
Thats the whole point with Kauto's rating. He has a massive rating against shit horses. He, IMO, doesnt deserve such a rating, neither do Imperial Commander or Denman. They are beating complete dross. Master Minded is worthy of a high rating, but maybe not as high as he is on.
I get Graham Goode sayin "In disgrace".... I think he means Dessie was in disgrace
WestieSpurs Says:
10/03/2012 12:52:13 AM
Totally agree, a beautifully spirited horse, just lovely.
Duszki Says:
6/01/2012 6:37:16 PM
I don't even think the punters that won were that bothered, just the fact that after his fall, he came safe...
cdheale Says:
6/01/2012 9:45:54 AM
enjoyed our debate bm43..and loved your videos.have posted a comment on your You Tube channel thread but its queued for approval
bluemanc43 Says:
6/01/2012 9:20:03 AM
But thats the modern problem yes they can because of training advancements they can be got fully fit at home so no pressure is placed on them on the track as would have been in the past. See You Then set the standard in the mid 80's traina fragile champion for the day thats what he was known as See You When? but it worked. Best Mate wasnt fragile but couldnt cope with races close together and certainly not ones that would put him under pressure apart from the Gold Cup.
cdheale Says:
6/01/2012 9:03:29 AM
No horse that wins 3 gold cups and a king george is a joke..whatever the quality of opposition
bluemanc43 Says:
6/01/2012 8:30:13 AM
Difference between Dessie and Kauto for me is Dessie raced in Grade 1 Company and top class handicaps over hurdles and fences for 8 seasons he also had 30 more races than Kauto yet all we hear is Kautos longivity, Oh please level weight contests dont bottom top class chasers as 9 times out of 10 they race inferior fields and like i told somebody else Beef or Salmon won 10 Grade 1s all in Ireland is he a legend???
bluemanc43 Says:
6/01/2012 8:23:16 AM
Best Mate is a joke he beat nothing of note in virtually any race yet is a great because he won 3 Gold Cups not to me he aint. I gave far more respect to Kauto in losing to Monets Garden than I ever had previously because he lost to a top class horse narrowly proving how highly he was rated may be correct but its the only 1 that you can rate where as Dessie did it season after season.
cdheale Says:
6/01/2012 7:53:41 AM
But Dessie was beaten twice at Sandown. PN saw what Best Mate achieved and took the view that because of Kauto's lighter athletic build he would not wear him out in handicaps. He was unafraid to run Denman in handicaps because he had the robust build of an old fashioned chaser. Incidentally Denman won his 2 hennessys off 161 and 174 ..Kauto got beat a length by Monets Garden, ( finishing 20 lengths clear of Exotic Dancer ) off a mark of 179 so his handicap performance was perfectly respectable
bluemanc43 Says:
6/01/2012 7:36:35 AM
Kauto is virtually equally as good either way round Denman was even worse affected than Dessie in his aversion but Denman was certainly the better horse round Cheltenham than either Kauto or Dessie. Denman I agree wasnt versitile like Kauto or Dessie and dont forget if the Tingle Creek was still a handicap as it was in Dessies day Kauto wouldnt have even lined up never mind won it.
cdheale Says:
6/01/2012 7:23:07 AM
Each will have their fans ..and they are both true greats..but i have seen both Dessie and Kauto in the flesh and my own view is that KS is the more versatile, particularly because of his ability to win on both right handed and left handed tracks. It does not denigrate him merely because he didn't attempt a Whitbread or Hennessy. Denman was his equal and superior at Cheltenham but as a galloper rather than a speed horse he could not act at Aintree or kempton nor win a Tingle Creek
bluemanc43 Says:
6/01/2012 7:12:48 AM
Both are great horses Kauto was lucky enough to have a nemesis his equal and for me better in Denman and cant even claim to be the top rated performer of his time Master Minded has been rated higher and currently Big Bucks has a higher rating. Just because a horse wins level weight races framed for them and no other dont make them the best ever after all Golden Miller won 5 Gold Cups and a Grand National each are legends of their time and we enjoy them while we can.
cdheale Says:
6/01/2012 3:45:30 AM
So Kauto couldn't win a KG at 11 ? Yeah right ! Dessie was a great but Kauto's achievements surpass him... 2 Gold Cup wins plus 2 Gold Cup places and 5 King George wins versus 1 GC win, 2 places and 4 King Georges.
uhegbu Says:
20/12/2011 5:44:28 PM
A sad end to a great steeplechaser and a true Kempton legend, Desert Orchid.
ALmyster4791 Says:
30/06/2011 7:22:47 AM
Ok get your gold cup point but.... who of any decency has Kauto beat in a Gold Cup. Exsotic Dancer wasnt top level and Denman had a dodgy ticker. My point is, Dessie beat good horses off levels.... and he thrashed the same good horses giving then nearly 2 stone. Kauto couldnt give away 1. Kauto is good.... But he couldnt win a KG at 11 (should have been 10 but for the posponment) Dessie thrashed a gold cup winner by 17lngth at 11 and gave away 1st 1lb and WON at 12. Could Kauto Star?
imgonnastayeighteen Says:
21/06/2011 4:04:39 AM
does anybody know who the jockey was? richard dunwoody?
emmelby Says:
21/04/2011 9:31:22 PM
The reception from the crowd made me teary, and I didn't even know about Desert Orchid until a few years ago, due to being in the wrong hemisphere.
MeMeMeMeMeMeMeMeAndU Says:
21/03/2011 9:39:35 AM
How many well backed horses get a reception like that after they've just got beat? Not many i'm sure. Dessie was simply a joy to watch and anyone who really loves horse racing & who was around to watch him race should thank their lucky stars that they got to see a real champ.
aquamarineeyes Says:
2/02/2011 5:37:54 AM
Watching this race after so long has made my eyes fill with tears of joy at the reception the crowd gave Dessie when he came home safe n sound. The commentator was more interested in Dessie than the eventual winner and that says a lot about the old boy! Dessie you are sadly sadly missed. R.I.P.
Jamie2462A Says:
24/01/2011 7:37:17 AM
Kauto has proved himself to be as good as Dessie if not better. Just because he does not give a way weight does not make him a worse of a horse. The idea is to complete at the pinnicle of your sport. For these 2 its the Gold Cup and King George. Surely that puts Kauto right up there with the best, along side Dessie, Arkle and Golden Miller. Beating the horses he did was nothing less than totally amazing. Its not who he beat...its how he beats them!!
ALmyster947 Says:
22/01/2011 9:01:26 AM
Thats the whole point with Kauto's rating. He has a massive rating against shit horses. He, IMO, doesnt deserve such a rating, neither do Imperial Commander or Denman. They are beating complete dross. Master Minded is worthy of a high rating, but maybe not as high as he is on. I get Graham Goode sayin "In disgrace".... I think he means Dessie was in disgrace