We both love horses, and I definitely don't want to fight. I don't know if Arcaro was alive when this was filmed, but Phil Georgeff was. He knows more about horseracing, Citation, and Arcaro than anybody. It seem to me that if you are making a documentary about Citation, Phil would be an invaluable source of info....let's leave it at that....
I don't want another back and forth with you. I get depressed thinking about it. Let me just say I think you are WAY off "track" so to speak on this, once again managing to find an argument... against Bill Nack in this case. Bill Nack was NOT demeaning Citation. He picked a word intending to express, in this case, the staying power of this horse, a simile to describe his strength. Pick Nack? You're projecting, that he cldn't possibly give Citation his due. You're just wrong headed on this.
Bon: Cy won the Derby 10 days before I was born! One reason he is special to me. Like Sec, he was a very intelligent horse. I actually thought that Nack's comments were unflattering. "Titanium"? No Bill, bone a muscle, just like all horses, including Sec. Why Nack was picked as a commentator, known as a lover of Sec and who hadn't seen him run, and not Phil Georgeff, a track announcer who had seen Cy, is a terrible casting mistake...
Coaltown was a sprinter, but was not quicker. The Jones knew that. Arcaro slowed Cy, then let him close the gap around the first turn running outside, then caught Coaltown at the top of the stretch and put him away. 3 runs in a Derby. Belmont? Cy stumbled at the gate, then ran to the front, let a horse run with him for a while, then got to the front and Arcaro simply galluped him home. At that time, it was a record. A simple TC bon
"Coaltown was quicker".... out of the gate Citation was slower? Means nothing. I know another superhorse that did the same thing, was so highly muscled with that huge heart, he was still learning how to gather himself, synchronize, level out and then his jockey said it was like riding a jet, so smooth, horse so big he didn't realize how fast he was going. Was 3 before he figured it all out. Then he cld do it all, out of the gate at Belmont, jockey chirped once and history was made.
My father used to say. yuh.... Man O'War !! when we'd talk history, and Citation. Look at him starting at 2:21, that amazing, beautiful bow, arching his neck. Bill Nack, writes like a poet about Secretariat, and does the same here, as he lists Citations string of victories... "that horse must have been built out of titanium."
I was 2 1/2 when he was born, 5 + 8 mos when he won the Triple Crown. My dad probably listened on the radio, no TV back, then, for us not until spring of 1954.
Long Beach Press-TelegraM, February 28, 1950, By FRED DELANO
"IT REALLY CANNOT BE CLAIMED that Citation was slowed
down by the 132 pounds he carried at Santa Anita despite the
fact that he may have been beaten because of it. At even
weights he would run away from any other horse in the field,
including Noor." Noor (110) had to set an American record to barely beat Cy (132). Bill Christie doesn't know what her is talking about.
Note a few mistakes:
1. Bull Lea was not Whirlaway's sire. It was Hyperion.
2. The ending of the Belmont Stakes is really showing the ending of the Jockey Club Gold Cup in 10/1948, beating Phalanx by 10 lengths, run at 2 mile "under double wraps".
3 Some of the pictures from the Preakness are from another race. There were only 4 horses, and they stayed in the same positions the entire race.
If Snider had not perished, Cy would have been 20 for 20. Unheard of.
My point was that Cy would have won those races at even weights. The Western tracks are faster.
I did not mean to disparage Noor. He is a Hall of Fame horse. Cy's bad luck that he had to run against him 4 times. And that the stewards did not put more weight on Noor (they put more weight on him as the year went on).
He did give Cy one pound in the GGHdp and it is a great mystery why Cy lost. It was his last race of the year.
Well, I think you are being unfair to Noor. Noor was really good, just only in California. He beat Citation in the Golden Gate Hcp in world record time while GIVING Citation weight.
After his disastrous trip east, Noor shipped back to California, and they held the Hollywood Gold Cup in December because of a fire. EVERY good horse in training showed up, including Ponder, Assault, and Hill Prince, and Noor beat them all in 1:59 and change. There was NO shame in Citation losing to him.
Thank you. Noor, new to this country, beat him by VERY small margins (most less than a length). Even worse, Noor was extremely underweighted. In the Santa Anita, Noor had 110 and Cy 132. Noor beat him by 1 in a new track record. Next, the San Capistrano, one of the great races, was a photo finish...Noor by a nose. Noor 117, Cy 130 in a new track/American record.When Noor went back East, he did not do so well.
Cy has nothing to be ashamed about. If Noor carried more weight, he would have lost.
This is good, but it gets Citation's 5 year old season totally wrong. Citation was fine at 5. If it hadn't been for one horse, we would be talking about him having an amazing 5 year old season, coming back 100 percent, and setting a bunch of track and world records.
What happened was simply that he ran into a very special horse, Noor, who ran insane times. Citation couldn't beat Noor, but he kicked the crap out of everyone else and ran incredible times himself.
1948BigCy Says:
8/12/2012 12:36:32 PM
We both love horses, and I definitely don't want to fight. I don't know if Arcaro was alive when this was filmed, but Phil Georgeff was. He knows more about horseracing, Citation, and Arcaro than anybody. It seem to me that if you are making a documentary about Citation, Phil would be an invaluable source of info....let's leave it at that....
bon1042 Says:
8/12/2012 11:17:10 AM
I don't want another back and forth with you. I get depressed thinking about it. Let me just say I think you are WAY off "track" so to speak on this, once again managing to find an argument... against Bill Nack in this case. Bill Nack was NOT demeaning Citation. He picked a word intending to express, in this case, the staying power of this horse, a simile to describe his strength. Pick Nack? You're projecting, that he cldn't possibly give Citation his due. You're just wrong headed on this.
1948BigCy Says:
3/12/2012 5:03:31 PM
Bon: Cy won the Derby 10 days before I was born! One reason he is special to me. Like Sec, he was a very intelligent horse. I actually thought that Nack's comments were unflattering. "Titanium"? No Bill, bone a muscle, just like all horses, including Sec. Why Nack was picked as a commentator, known as a lover of Sec and who hadn't seen him run, and not Phil Georgeff, a track announcer who had seen Cy, is a terrible casting mistake...
1948BigCy Says:
3/12/2012 4:55:11 PM
Coaltown was a sprinter, but was not quicker. The Jones knew that. Arcaro slowed Cy, then let him close the gap around the first turn running outside, then caught Coaltown at the top of the stretch and put him away. 3 runs in a Derby. Belmont? Cy stumbled at the gate, then ran to the front, let a horse run with him for a while, then got to the front and Arcaro simply galluped him home. At that time, it was a record. A simple TC bon
bon1042 Says:
22/10/2012 10:44:12 AM
"Coaltown was quicker".... out of the gate Citation was slower? Means nothing. I know another superhorse that did the same thing, was so highly muscled with that huge heart, he was still learning how to gather himself, synchronize, level out and then his jockey said it was like riding a jet, so smooth, horse so big he didn't realize how fast he was going. Was 3 before he figured it all out. Then he cld do it all, out of the gate at Belmont, jockey chirped once and history was made.
bon1042 Says:
22/10/2012 10:21:42 AM
My father used to say. yuh.... Man O'War !! when we'd talk history, and Citation. Look at him starting at 2:21, that amazing, beautiful bow, arching his neck. Bill Nack, writes like a poet about Secretariat, and does the same here, as he lists Citations string of victories... "that horse must have been built out of titanium." I was 2 1/2 when he was born, 5 + 8 mos when he won the Triple Crown. My dad probably listened on the radio, no TV back, then, for us not until spring of 1954.
1948BigCy Says:
24/09/2012 4:48:32 AM
Heywood Hale Broun seems to be the only one who knows that Calumet made baking POWDER, not baking SODA. Big difference!!!
1948BigCy Says:
20/08/2012 2:06:59 PM
Long Beach Press-TelegraM, February 28, 1950, By FRED DELANO "IT REALLY CANNOT BE CLAIMED that Citation was slowed down by the 132 pounds he carried at Santa Anita despite the fact that he may have been beaten because of it. At even weights he would run away from any other horse in the field, including Noor." Noor (110) had to set an American record to barely beat Cy (132). Bill Christie doesn't know what her is talking about.
1948BigCy Says:
10/08/2012 3:17:32 PM
Note a few mistakes: 1. Bull Lea was not Whirlaway's sire. It was Hyperion. 2. The ending of the Belmont Stakes is really showing the ending of the Jockey Club Gold Cup in 10/1948, beating Phalanx by 10 lengths, run at 2 mile "under double wraps". 3 Some of the pictures from the Preakness are from another race. There were only 4 horses, and they stayed in the same positions the entire race. If Snider had not perished, Cy would have been 20 for 20. Unheard of.
1948BigCy Says:
7/08/2012 7:35:58 AM
My point was that Cy would have won those races at even weights. The Western tracks are faster. I did not mean to disparage Noor. He is a Hall of Fame horse. Cy's bad luck that he had to run against him 4 times. And that the stewards did not put more weight on Noor (they put more weight on him as the year went on). He did give Cy one pound in the GGHdp and it is a great mystery why Cy lost. It was his last race of the year.
c7rfnmn Says:
7/08/2012 6:55:51 AM
Well, I think you are being unfair to Noor. Noor was really good, just only in California. He beat Citation in the Golden Gate Hcp in world record time while GIVING Citation weight. After his disastrous trip east, Noor shipped back to California, and they held the Hollywood Gold Cup in December because of a fire. EVERY good horse in training showed up, including Ponder, Assault, and Hill Prince, and Noor beat them all in 1:59 and change. There was NO shame in Citation losing to him.
1948BigCy Says:
6/08/2012 2:36:11 PM
Thank you. Noor, new to this country, beat him by VERY small margins (most less than a length). Even worse, Noor was extremely underweighted. In the Santa Anita, Noor had 110 and Cy 132. Noor beat him by 1 in a new track record. Next, the San Capistrano, one of the great races, was a photo finish...Noor by a nose. Noor 117, Cy 130 in a new track/American record.When Noor went back East, he did not do so well. Cy has nothing to be ashamed about. If Noor carried more weight, he would have lost.
c7rfnmn Says:
2/06/2012 4:16:34 PM
This is good, but it gets Citation's 5 year old season totally wrong. Citation was fine at 5. If it hadn't been for one horse, we would be talking about him having an amazing 5 year old season, coming back 100 percent, and setting a bunch of track and world records. What happened was simply that he ran into a very special horse, Noor, who ran insane times. Citation couldn't beat Noor, but he kicked the crap out of everyone else and ran incredible times himself.
SpringxRose Says:
19/05/2012 7:04:18 PM
Citation was really one of the greatest ♥ Thanks for uploading that documentary^^