The Only Horse that gets in the Argument with Arkle as the Greatest steeplechaser at their peak is the unlucky Flyingbolt. His performances in the 1965/66 were almost identical to Arkle in that they were beating the same horses by the same distances giving virtually the same weight. I read somewhere that a work rider of Dreapers at the time actually quietly said that Flyingbolt could beat Arkle at levels. What a Shame they did not meet in the 1966 or `67 Gold Cup.
Have to agree Kauto is the modern day Arkle, Dessie marker and if pushed in between Arkle Dessie probably also Captain Christy and One Man. All were by far the best jumpers and speediest perfomers of their day and their day being it. Each was trained to the best available standards of their times nobody knows how they would cope in another era certainly Kauto wouldnt have raced again beyond his Exeter fall in any bar Dessies era.
One of the greatest moments in racing history, two legends in head to head battle on a sunny day at jumpings headquarters, called by Sir Peter at the peak of his career. It shows what a great horseman Pat Taaffe was because Arkle could pull like a train. The comment that Kauto would have lapped this lot is nonsense. At levels on Gold Cup day nothing will convince me that Kauto would have won, though it might have been close to the last and Arkle was much the better jumper of the two
quite simply he couldnt, arkle was a myth, created to to vitalize national hunt racing which was on its knees, trust me arkle could not live with kauto around kempton
Desert Orchid and Kauto Star are the 2 best 3m chasers I've seen since getting into racing in 1989. At their peak around a left handed track i'd favor KS, on a right-handed track i think it would have been very close. Ever since i've gotten into racing it's been sacrilege to mention any horse in the breath as Arkle. I understand why he is rated the best but I have a very hard time believing that he could have given between 20lbs & 30lbs and a beating to DO & KS around Kempton.
I agree that Dessie's record over 8 seasons merits immense respect. He could have won some of Kauto's King Georges but wouldn't have beaten him going left-handed. Unlike Arkle & Dessie, Kauto doesn't have any big handicap wins under top weight & I doubt if he would have won Denman's two Hennessys under the same weights. The best weight carrying performance has to be Red Rum in the 1974 National, conceding 1lb to l'Escargot. Top weight now is 11-10; Rummy won it with 12-0!
Best Mate good horse but faced nothing of any note quality wise. Injury does play a big part if Dessie had been in Arkles era he wouldnt have run often Kauto / Denman likely would have been retired due to his leg injury / heart scare, thats the type of things that makes it difficult to establish bests of the best. 2000s are so lucky in having a modern Arkle / Mill House to keep the racing bug jumping wise debated and rightly so. Long live our legends memories.
I agree to a degree but drop the gade 1 stuff its so modern biased. Kauto would have won less than half his grade 1s in Dessies time never mind Arkle's why coz they were either handicaps and he wouldnt have in them run or they didnt exist. Dont give Kauto such praise too in his oh he was so good over so many seasons at the highest level Dessie raced in Grade 1s from 5 to 12 over hurdles as well as fences. Statrs Dessie 71 starts Kauto 40 who had it tougher?
Let's be grateful we've had all these great staying chasers to enjoy over the years. Denman was a better Gold Cup horse than Kauto Star because he beat him in in three of the four Gold Cups they raced together. Kauto is the better all round chaser because of the variety of courses on which he can race and, hence the more Grade 1 chase wins. To maintain such a high standard over so many seasons is a terrific achievement while Arkle's career was cut short by leg injuries. Don't forget Best Mate !
Have to revert to your reply ask Nicholls he wouldnt even admit Master Minded was officially their better as the rating suggest yet neither Kauto or Denman ever matched a performance to match his first Champion chase win yet are we saying Master Minded is the best horse of all time or he would leave Arkle for dead?? Flying Bolt in the 60s was the closest Master Minded could be compared to but even he was rated slightly behind Arkle.
You were the one that mentioned pace not me Kauto as I said is trained in a different time and regime to Arkle ond or Dessie I just mentioned Grand Crus as a leveller to highlight so called simple speed means jack shit. When Denman won his Gold Gup yes it almost killed him but not enough to stop him coming back and beating that same horse last year but oh Kauto wasnt right again all last year neither was Denman. Both are greats but not the greatest.
only a moron rates horse by the time they run, the time run depends on the way the race unfolded, gran cru is top horse that would smash the living daylights out of arkle. dont forget the only time denman won the gold cup he almost killed himself to do so, infact he was never really the same horse, kauto been at the top of the game for 7 seasons now
Oh please your old enough to know that last comment is a total joke Kauto has spent his carear trying to better the grey and if he was a plodder then you really need to look again at your values neither Arkle or Dessie were plodders they dominated in far tougher times and race patterns than Kauto has ever met or will. Another point if Kauto is so great how come Grand Crus ran a quicker time overC+D as a novice in the Feltham does that make him the better horse??????
true run gold cup doesnt stay? what rubbish, what has won 2 gold cups, and denman was in one of them, how can a horse win a race in which he deosnt stay, complete bollox
I added the Beef or Salmon as a modern day example winning a grade 1 being a crap level of stardom but thats how it seems to be rated. Denman for me will always be the better Gold Cup horse simply because he performs much better of the pair there and so the better stayer. Kauto is the quicker of the 2 but in a true run Gold Cup didnt truely stay view any footage of him in them and he never fully got home. Both are the best for many years but no better than the greats
Kauto Star is better then both these plodders you mention, but dont take my word for it take the opnion of champ trainer p nicholls, or jumps legend ruby walsh. they have trained and ridden both, denman not in kauto league
I didnt say Denman was the most versatile of the pair just the better over their distance. Kauto is very Dessie like in that he could dominate 2 to 3 miles + but he certainly wasnt Dessies superior again its different eras If the Tingle Creek and Victor Chandler would have been grade 1s in Dessies day he would have walked them year in and out even though he beat Panto Prince in the best Victor Chandler ever giving him 22lbs no less. Could Kauto erm nar id say
mervyncharter Says:
27/02/2012 2:08:18 PM
The Only Horse that gets in the Argument with Arkle as the Greatest steeplechaser at their peak is the unlucky Flyingbolt. His performances in the 1965/66 were almost identical to Arkle in that they were beating the same horses by the same distances giving virtually the same weight. I read somewhere that a work rider of Dreapers at the time actually quietly said that Flyingbolt could beat Arkle at levels. What a Shame they did not meet in the 1966 or `67 Gold Cup.
bluemanc43 Says:
15/01/2012 7:30:39 AM
Have to agree Kauto is the modern day Arkle, Dessie marker and if pushed in between Arkle Dessie probably also Captain Christy and One Man. All were by far the best jumpers and speediest perfomers of their day and their day being it. Each was trained to the best available standards of their times nobody knows how they would cope in another era certainly Kauto wouldnt have raced again beyond his Exeter fall in any bar Dessies era.
bluemanc43 Says:
15/01/2012 7:25:03 AM
Dawn Run best mare by far ever but she proved in her limited chase carear she wasnt a great jumper and would have fell in a truely top class field.
arkleno1 Says:
15/01/2012 7:21:27 AM
One of the greatest moments in racing history, two legends in head to head battle on a sunny day at jumpings headquarters, called by Sir Peter at the peak of his career. It shows what a great horseman Pat Taaffe was because Arkle could pull like a train. The comment that Kauto would have lapped this lot is nonsense. At levels on Gold Cup day nothing will convince me that Kauto would have won, though it might have been close to the last and Arkle was much the better jumper of the two
TissuePrices Says:
8/01/2012 8:41:18 AM
quite simply he couldnt, arkle was a myth, created to to vitalize national hunt racing which was on its knees,
trust me arkle could not live with kauto around kempton
joiganja Says:
1/01/2012 11:07:17 PM
what about dawn run, has anyone matched her record over hurdles and fences. the gold cup she won was a quality field.
Arazi124 Says:
1/01/2012 10:53:12 PM
Desert Orchid and Kauto Star are the 2 best 3m chasers I've seen since getting into racing in 1989. At their peak around a left handed track i'd favor KS, on a right-handed track i think it would have been very close. Ever since i've gotten into racing it's been sacrilege to mention any horse in the breath as Arkle. I understand why he is rated the best but I have a very hard time believing that he could have given between 20lbs & 30lbs and a beating to DO & KS around Kempton.
112sje Says:
1/01/2012 10:32:59 AM
I agree that Dessie's record over 8 seasons merits immense respect. He could have won some of Kauto's King Georges but wouldn't have beaten him going left-handed. Unlike Arkle & Dessie, Kauto doesn't have any big handicap wins under top weight & I doubt if he would have won Denman's two Hennessys under the same weights. The best weight carrying performance has to be Red Rum in the 1974 National, conceding 1lb to l'Escargot. Top weight now is 11-10; Rummy won it with 12-0!
TissuePrices Says:
1/01/2012 10:19:18 AM
kauto is rated higher then masterminded and denman
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 9:35:13 AM
Best Mate good horse but faced nothing of any note quality wise. Injury does play a big part if Dessie had been in Arkles era he wouldnt have run often Kauto / Denman likely would have been retired due to his leg injury / heart scare, thats the type of things that makes it difficult to establish bests of the best. 2000s are so lucky in having a modern Arkle / Mill House to keep the racing bug jumping wise debated and rightly so. Long live our legends memories.
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 9:26:49 AM
I agree to a degree but drop the gade 1 stuff its so modern biased. Kauto would have won less than half his grade 1s in Dessies time never mind Arkle's why coz they were either handicaps and he wouldnt have in them run or they didnt exist. Dont give Kauto such praise too in his oh he was so good over so many seasons at the highest level Dessie raced in Grade 1s from 5 to 12 over hurdles as well as fences. Statrs Dessie 71 starts Kauto 40 who had it tougher?
112sje Says:
1/01/2012 9:14:07 AM
Let's be grateful we've had all these great staying chasers to enjoy over the years. Denman was a better Gold Cup horse than Kauto Star because he beat him in in three of the four Gold Cups they raced together. Kauto is the better all round chaser because of the variety of courses on which he can race and, hence the more Grade 1 chase wins. To maintain such a high standard over so many seasons is a terrific achievement while Arkle's career was cut short by leg injuries. Don't forget Best Mate !
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 9:14:02 AM
Have to revert to your reply ask Nicholls he wouldnt even admit Master Minded was officially their better as the rating suggest yet neither Kauto or Denman ever matched a performance to match his first Champion chase win yet are we saying Master Minded is the best horse of all time or he would leave Arkle for dead?? Flying Bolt in the 60s was the closest Master Minded could be compared to but even he was rated slightly behind Arkle.
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 9:08:21 AM
You were the one that mentioned pace not me Kauto as I said is trained in a different time and regime to Arkle ond or Dessie I just mentioned Grand Crus as a leveller to highlight so called simple speed means jack shit. When Denman won his Gold Gup yes it almost killed him but not enough to stop him coming back and beating that same horse last year but oh Kauto wasnt right again all last year neither was Denman. Both are greats but not the greatest.
TissuePrices Says:
1/01/2012 8:57:40 AM
only a moron rates horse by the time they run, the time run depends on the way the race unfolded, gran cru is top horse that would smash the living daylights out of arkle.
dont forget the only time denman won the gold cup he almost killed himself to do so, infact he was never really the same horse, kauto been at the top of the game for 7 seasons now
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 8:51:21 AM
Oh please your old enough to know that last comment is a total joke Kauto has spent his carear trying to better the grey and if he was a plodder then you really need to look again at your values neither Arkle or Dessie were plodders they dominated in far tougher times and race patterns than Kauto has ever met or will. Another point if Kauto is so great how come Grand Crus ran a quicker time overC+D as a novice in the Feltham does that make him the better horse??????
TissuePrices Says:
1/01/2012 8:43:51 AM
true run gold cup doesnt stay? what rubbish, what has won 2 gold cups, and denman was in one of them, how can a horse win a race in which he deosnt stay, complete bollox
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 8:35:52 AM
I added the Beef or Salmon as a modern day example winning a grade 1 being a crap level of stardom but thats how it seems to be rated. Denman for me will always be the better Gold Cup horse simply because he performs much better of the pair there and so the better stayer. Kauto is the quicker of the 2 but in a true run Gold Cup didnt truely stay view any footage of him in them and he never fully got home. Both are the best for many years but no better than the greats
TissuePrices Says:
1/01/2012 8:30:25 AM
Kauto Star is better then both these plodders you mention, but dont take my word for it take the opnion of champ trainer p nicholls, or jumps legend ruby walsh. they have trained and ridden both, denman not in kauto league
bluemanc43 Says:
1/01/2012 8:23:15 AM
I didnt say Denman was the most versatile of the pair just the better over their distance. Kauto is very Dessie like in that he could dominate 2 to 3 miles + but he certainly wasnt Dessies superior again its different eras If the Tingle Creek and Victor Chandler would have been grade 1s in Dessies day he would have walked them year in and out even though he beat Panto Prince in the best Victor Chandler ever giving him 22lbs no less. Could Kauto erm nar id say